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.
This is especially true for Charlie Poulson and Oliver Scialdone. Both stories involve a simple yet deeply important haircut. For Charlie, a trans man, his haircut in a men’s barber shop in Italy represented a rite of passage. For Oliver, who is non-binary, the “cool slick masculine haircut” they got helped them finally align their appearance with their identity.
In this episode, we’ll listen to these two stories and hear Phil and Alex discuss their own experiences with appearance and expression and the role it plays in their lives as queer people.
Transcript provided by YouTube:
00:02
[Music]
00:09
hey this is Phil a ka Corinne and I’m
00:11
Alex Berg and you’re listening to the
00:13
I’m from the Buddha podcast
00:18
first up we have Charley Paulson whose
00:21
experience as a trans man in an Italian
00:23
barber shop marked a new chapter in his
00:25
life going back to college when I first
00:28
started transitioning it was in Ames
00:31
Iowa which is a little bit more on the
00:34
conservative side it’s a mostly
00:36
agriculture school so when I came out
00:39
and started transitioning it kind of
00:41
turned heads a little bit but I was very
00:43
open about everything from taking
00:45
testosterone to surgery but then in that
00:48
fall semester we did a study abroad trip
00:51
to Rome and this was the first time that
00:54
I had gone somewhere after surgery where
00:56
nobody knew my past and I was walking
00:59
around and like turned a corner and
01:01
there was this little hole in the wall a
01:03
barber shop but it was like a barber
01:05
shop that like hadn’t been touched like
01:07
since it opened
01:08
probably like in the 20s or something
01:10
barber shops are kind of like almost
01:12
like a rite of passage for any kind of
01:16
like masculine you know masculinity in
01:19
general speaking this little little tiny
01:21
old man with like white hair just like
01:25
comes shuffling out from behind the
01:26
curtain and I just slaughtered all
01:29
Italian skills that I had at that point
01:31
and I asked him for a haircut it’s like
01:34
the funny little things that like guys
01:36
do between each other for example like
01:38
if you don’t know a guy and you are
01:41
crossing paths with him like you nod
01:43
downward so but if you do know someone
01:44
you know like you not upwards like it’s
01:46
just a little tiny like unspoken things
01:48
like that and like when he was cutting
01:50
my hair it was very like a very unspoken
01:53
don’t worry I’ve got you I’m gonna cut
01:55
your hair like make you feel better like
01:56
you’re good to go with that sort of
01:58
thing
01:58
that trip to Rome was like an entire
02:02
turning point it was kind of like a
02:04
taste of what my life could be like it
02:08
could be something where I have more
02:10
time to focus on design and you know
02:13
things that I really enjoyed doing and I
02:14
don’t have to worry about you know do I
02:16
need to tell anybody that I’m trans do I
02:18
need to like out myself do I need to you
02:21
know that sort of thing I thought
02:23
Charlie surgery was so compelling
02:24
because he had to talk about some of the
02:26
decisions he made about how to safely
02:27
navigate his identity as a trans person
02:30
and having to do that calculus of going
02:33
into the barbershop and then you know
02:36
being able to be affirmed in that place
02:38
it was really it was interesting yeah I
02:39
think that was a very life-altering trip
02:41
for Charlie because when you listen to
02:43
him talk about going to Italy and being
02:46
very fearful at first because he was
02:48
very worried that he was walking into
02:51
this environment where his history
02:53
didn’t matter which was probably really
02:55
wonderful but also a little scary
02:57
because he was also like am I going to
03:00
be found out or is someone gonna know is
03:02
this gonna make things very unsafe for
03:03
me and then find out that you know
03:05
basically where he went everyone sort of
03:07
kept to themselves so there was a little
03:09
safety for him in that but then to now
03:11
go into this you know this barbershop
03:13
and roll the dice I mean if you’re a
03:15
masculine person that thinks about hair
03:17
like going into a barber shop he’s a
03:20
couple there’s a couple different things
03:22
that are very kind of scary about that
03:24
he like he mentions it there’s a rite of
03:26
passage and I you know I can tell you
03:28
from going to barber shops it’s not the
03:30
most comfortable place to be sometimes
03:31
but also I love the fact that he talks
03:33
about this like nonverbal communication
03:36
that happens with men that was
03:37
fascinating to me I loved that I mean I
03:39
think one of the big things is that it
03:41
kind of it gets at this idea of how he
03:43
was suddenly privy to these different
03:47
conversations that I guess men have with
03:50
each other and all of a sudden he’s like
03:52
navigating that other aspect of gender
03:54
depending on people’s assumptions about
03:57
his own gender identity our next story
04:01
highlights
04:01
Oliver Schelde own a non-binary person
04:04
who like Charlie shares how something as
04:07
simple as a haircut can be life-changing
04:10
I really felt a lot of like weirdness
04:14
about my gender for a really long time
04:15
especially like you know even when I was
04:18
a kid I definitely knew that like I was
04:20
not supposed to be like a feminine
04:22
presenting person like I always saw
04:24
myself as butch in high school I had
04:26
like Zooey Deschanel things which were a
04:30
phase I guess that was a not my greatest
04:33
look I considered like cutting my hair
04:36
short for a while and at the time like
04:38
my parents have gotten a lot better now
04:40
about me being queer like they use my
04:42
proper name and pronouns and like
04:43
everything which is great back then like
04:45
they were not very cool about it at all
04:48
I remember like wanting to cut my hair
04:51
and at the time I was going to like our
04:53
family stylist have been cutting my
04:55
parents and my brothers hair and my hair
04:57
since you know it was like a little kid
04:59
and she even like wouldn’t do things if
05:02
she knew that like my mom was gonna get
05:04
kind of angry about it so like if I
05:06
asked her to do something she’d be like
05:07
yeah your mom’s not gonna like that and
05:08
she like wouldn’t do it it literally
05:10
wasn’t until I was like 20 when I
05:13
actually got to cut my hair short so
05:15
even though I did then it was kind of
05:16
like a almost like a softer more
05:18
feminine cut part of that too as I was
05:20
still working with that same stylist who
05:22
was like your mom’s like I like this so
05:24
I’m gonna make it like kind of softer
05:25
you know like do this for you it wasn’t
05:27
until I moved to New York when I was 24
05:31
for grad school when I met my friend of
05:34
mine who was also my grad program he was
05:37
not the first you know other trans
05:39
person I had met that he was really the
05:41
only other trans person I’d ever become
05:42
like close friends with and he went to
05:44
this barber and he wasn’t even like a
05:46
queer barber gave him like no problems
05:48
about being his shop just let him sit
05:50
down in the chair and let him you know
05:52
get the type-a haircut that he wanted
05:54
that made him feel good about himself
05:55
and I definitely wanted to maybe go see
05:59
him so I went to this barber and I just
06:02
sat down I just kind of told him that I
06:04
wanted a really tight undercut and that
06:07
I wanted like the top to be kind of
06:09
slick and that’s like what he did for me
06:10
and it was absolutely perfect
06:12
like I remember he actually took like
06:13
the sideburns where you could still kind
06:16
of see like the stubble I guess you
06:18
would call it I don’t know if that’s
06:19
what you would call it if it’s hair on
06:20
your head and not a beard but
06:22
where you could kind of see the stubble
06:24
and he like shave them into like points
06:26
which was kind of edgy and cool in a way
06:29
like the haircut kind of inspired me to
06:30
be able to like wear more masculine
06:32
clothing as well and I was getting he
06:34
hemmed a lot and I was being misgendered
06:36
like my pronouns are they in them even
06:38
though it wasn’t correct it felt like
06:40
kind of nice to be read as something
06:42
other than female just because that’s
06:44
you know when I got misgendered
06:46
previously I was almost always
06:48
misgendered as a woman on one hand like
06:50
I don’t want to feel like I need
06:53
validation from other people to be seen
06:55
in my identity but so much of how I feel
07:00
about my gender and my sexual identities
07:03
has to do with the way that like I
07:05
express it it’s not the the look that
07:07
makes my identity it’s my identity
07:09
that’s crafted and curated this look for
07:11
me now I have a lot of fun like
07:13
experimenting with adding things that
07:16
have maybe a little bit more of a
07:18
feminine flair to my style since I’m not
07:19
as concerned with looking like masculine
07:22
as I was because I know that it’s coming
07:24
just a little bit more naturally to me
07:26
now these stories just talk about
07:29
identity through a haircut it’s as a
07:31
conduit to realizing who you are and
07:34
having a sense of autonomy and ownership
07:35
over your identity I think that so many
07:38
of us go through our own variations of
07:40
those kinds of experiences of evolving
07:43
into the identity that feels good to us
07:47
whether it’s our style or the words that
07:49
we’re using to describe ourselves one of
07:51
the things that I’ve jumped out of me
07:53
was that Oliver and I’m quoting says
07:56
it’s not the look that makes my identity
07:58
it’s my identity that crafted and
08:00
carried this look for me and I thought
08:02
that was so interesting because I love
08:04
the idea of thinking of the look as
08:07
something that may have helped spark the
08:10
identity may have helped like start to
08:12
communicate the identity but at the end
08:14
of the day the identity is really
08:16
created from within and the look and the
08:19
sort of clothing is just basically a
08:21
supporting player in that I feel like a
08:23
lot of times when it comes to identity
08:26
we always think outside in in a lot of
08:28
different ways and we think of these
08:30
things as it can take on almost like a
08:32
superficial element but the fact that
08:34
you almost have these intern
08:36
all feelings and instincts and this
08:38
knowledge about yourself and then that
08:39
crafts how you end up presenting
08:41
yourself in the world I just think that
08:43
that’s such a beautiful way of putting
08:44
it yeah I really I love this I mean this
08:46
is something I talk about a lot and you
08:48
know when I’m out in the world and do
08:50
other podcasts and one in particular
08:51
talks about gender identity and style
08:53
and I think that there’s a tendency to
08:56
think sometimes it’s like you said that
08:57
style is a very superficial sort of
08:59
thing but when you think about what’s
09:01
with the role the style is playing in
09:03
the sort of like communicating of
09:05
identity it’s it’s actually very intense
09:07
it’s very it’s playing a very important
09:09
role and clothing does communicate it
09:12
does we do use as a form of
09:14
communication the first thing you see
09:16
when you meet someone is usually how
09:17
they’re dressed you know how they’re
09:18
presenting themselves and I think the
09:20
clothing really plays a big role on that
09:22
so I loved listening to Oliver sort of
09:24
come in to their their sort of fly power
09:27
from this idea of like I got this
09:30
haircut it was the first time I felt
09:32
seen you know that’s the other thing
09:33
like this is just a whole this whole
09:35
idea of feeling seen you know going
09:37
someplace and knowing that somebody’s
09:39
gonna cut your hair the way you they see
09:41
you because they’re actually seeing you
09:43
and then you’re gonna walk out of there
09:45
feeling like you truly are in your
09:47
identity and then that’s going to like
09:48
it’s really gonna dictate the way you
09:50
walk through the world I think that that
09:52
really came from suits for me like when
09:53
I started wearing suits it was just like
09:56
oh my goodness where have you been my
09:58
entire life it was the most incredible
10:01
feeling it just it was I felt so me I
10:05
think the suit has the cachet of being
10:07
very masculine in many ways and if you
10:10
haven’t really owned that once you put
10:13
on a suit it does have this tendency to
10:15
make you feel as if you’re in an armor
10:17
in a way yeah I feel like it’s just one
10:19
of those markers that convey is all of
10:21
the things that you mentioned about it
10:23
and one of the words that really stuck
10:24
with me that you said is armor and I
10:26
feel like for me in terms of identifying
10:28
I think a lot of times when we think of
10:30
these things that signal whether or not
10:33
we’re LGBTQ a lot of times people don’t
10:35
think of femininity or playing up
10:37
femininity as being part of that and so
10:39
I actually feel like for me when I cut
10:42
my hair and got bangs which I kind of
10:44
have this little bit of a retro haircut
10:46
for me it’s actually a lot of the Femmes
10:48
that I know have similar
10:50
haircuts or trying to use these kind of
10:52
like retro looks to signal to people
10:55
that like maybe there’s more to my
10:58
appearance than you might think and so
11:01
for me it feels like having this kind of
11:02
haircut is also a form of armor that’s
11:06
trying to convey that message about
11:07
myself to the world that’s so
11:09
interesting I never I’ve never heard
11:11
that I know from other Femmes that a lot
11:13
of times you’re always looking for
11:15
things you’re always looking for ways to
11:16
transgress very like traditional forms
11:18
of femininity in a way that is like
11:21
queer to you and I feel like a lot of
11:23
times I’ve seen other friends use like
11:26
in particular nostalgic imagery and
11:28
fashion of the past as a way of being
11:30
like oh you think that’s like
11:31
traditional let me show you how I’m
11:34
gonna use this to express that to the
11:37
world a retro haircut I think is
11:38
sometimes a way of signaling that you’re
11:40
into a counterculture kind of stuff suit
11:42
to a certain degree so I think like to
11:45
people who know they know like I I nod
11:47
my head at all the other women and
11:50
Femmes that I see who have bangs every
11:51
single day
11:52
it’s a journey I think it’s just a
11:54
journey for everyone yeah it’s a journey
11:56
and I feel like I’m I don’t know when
11:57
the end of it is right like I don’t know
11:59
how I think I feel like we all are
12:01
constantly changing and evolving and in
12:03
that process one of the things that I
12:05
just love about the LGBTQ community is
12:07
that our language and the way that we
12:10
understand ourselves evolves so quickly
12:14
and the way that we have all these new
12:16
descriptors and ways of conveying our
12:19
identity to the world your identity
12:21
whatever it is maybe today it has the it
12:24
has a right to change on a
12:25
minute-to-minute basis it has a right to
12:27
change over the course of your life as
12:30
rights change from day to day for months
12:32
a month I feel like we you know there’s
12:33
no real landing until you decide there’s
12:35
no landing
12:38
I think this story is important to share
12:42
because not very many people have
12:46
conversations about transitioning past
12:48
surgery like they kind of see surgery as
12:52
like though that all you know to every
12:55
single like transitioning problem but
12:57
that’s really you know not the case at
12:59
all like past surgery okay you’re like
13:02
great that’s done but how do you
13:04
navigate the world past transitioning
13:07
you know you finally like have had been
13:10
on like testosterone or you know
13:11
hormones long gonna have that you can
13:13
navigate like your own emotions but for
13:16
example when I first started taking
13:18
testosterone when I was getting the
13:21
prescription for my doctor he was going
13:23
through a list of all things I could
13:25
possibly happen and you have to like
13:26
legally sign off on every single one and
13:29
he suggested going to therapy the entire
13:32
time that I’m on testosterone he’s super
13:35
sweet he looked at me and he was like
13:37
you know I don’t think you personally
13:39
need therapy it’s not your fault it’s
13:42
society’s fault and you know it’s kind
13:46
of like okay how do i navigate that it
13:49
was that first haircut that allowed me
13:51
to embody that masculinity and I think
13:54
it’s it’s almost now been like more just
13:56
my attitude and my whole like aura or my
14:01
vibe that’s kind of what’s presenting it
14:02
it made me feel just so much more
14:05
comfortable with myself like it wasn’t
14:08
just like oh you know I have a fresh cut
14:11
I look cool it was I actually looked
14:14
like the person I am on the inside
14:17
one of the things that it definitely
14:18
made me think about is the privilege
14:20
that I have as a syst person like when I
14:22
walk into a salon nobody is questioning
14:25
why I’m there you know it’s like I asked
14:28
them for the kind of haircut that I want
14:30
and like that’s the end of it so I think
14:32
that it made me really think and want to
14:34
be careful about talking and thinking
14:35
about my own identity as its this person
14:37
and that way I think it’s this disc
14:39
feeling of power it’s feeling of like
14:41
this armor or this feeling of like
14:43
really communicating that with like no
14:45
nonsense communicating that I’m like
14:47
owning this masculine identity but you
14:49
know
14:50
interestingly enough the older I get the
14:52
more I realize it’s like I still love
14:54
suits I will always love suits but like
14:56
in terms of communicating myself as a
14:59
masculine individual it doesn’t have to
15:00
be a suit anymore right so once you own
15:03
an identity clothing can be played with
15:06
a little more it doesn’t have to be so
15:08
strict it can be you can enjoy it a
15:10
little more but I’ve always always
15:12
always loved a suit though that’ll
15:13
always be a thing for me you know I mean
15:17
[Music]
15:23
the I’m from driftwood podcasts is
15:26
hosted by Phil aka Corinne and Alex
15:28
Burke and is produced by Andy Egan
15:30
Thorpe the podcast is recorded as part
15:32
of I’m from driftwood a worldwide
15:34
nonprofit lgbtqia+ story archive and is
15:39
funded in part from TD Bank and heritage
15:41
of pride New York
15:42
I’m from driftwood was created by Nathan
15:44
Manske to help queer and trans people
15:46
learn more about their community help
15:48
straight people learn more about their
15:49
neighbors and help everyone learn more
15:51
about themselves all through the power
15:53
of storytelling the IFD program director
15:55
is Damien middle felt the stories you
15:57
hear today are available in their
15:58
entirety plus thousands more and I’m
16:01
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16:09
wherever you get your podcasts thanks
16:12
y’all for listening
16:13
[Music]
16:17
you
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